From Corporate To Confection: Shifting Careers With Baker Entrepreneur Catie Cohen

Corporate hustle and bustle isn’t for everyone. Baker-entrepreneur Catie Cohen found it exhausting to constantly keep up with the linear growth the corporate world had to offer. Her experience as an engineer and years working around the country led her to find her true passion in baking, giving rise to Demeter’s Kitchen. In this episode, she joins Yanet Borrego to share her exciting recipe for success. Catie takes us in on the journey of how she learned to make nourishing food and cultivate patience along the process. Learn more as Catie imparts her newfound creative drive in the food industry.

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From Corporate To Confection: Shifting Careers With Baker Entrepreneur Catie Cohen

 I have a very special and inspiring guest, Catie Cohen. She has a very unique story that I'm sure is going to inspire all of you. She was a former engineer in corporate and now she's a baker entrepreneur and business owner of Demeter's Kitchen. Thank you so much, Catie, for being here. I'm so appreciative of you.

Thank you for having me. I'm honored.

To give everyone a quick background on how we met, Catie and I used to work in my first corporate job, not together. We met through common friends. Did you ever work in the refinery?

I only interned at the refinery. I worked at Upstream.

We met when I was working my first corporate job. Since we met, we always had this common mindset of wanting to own our business and pursue our passion. Even before I did that, Catie jumped and did it for herself. She was a big inspiration for me to continue pursuing my passion. I'm excited for her to share her story. She's so wise and knowledgeable. Catie, what is your background? Where were you born? What did you study?

I grew up in New Jersey in a small town called Roosevelt Park, near Elizabeth and Newark. I was not always a great student. I remember in fourth grade getting a bad test and being so embarrassed that my parents had to come in and sign it. From then on, I felt committed to not being embarrassed by not working hard. It was from that point that I always made sure I got good grades because that seemed the way to not be embarrassed or judged.

I went through high school and was encouraged to study Chemical Engineering because I was good at Math and Science like most people probably who decide to do that. I went to NJIT in Newark because it was pretty much a free ride. I was very conscientious of money from a very young age. I always wanted a job, provide for myself and feel like I didn't need anything.

I went to NJIT and got internships at the same oil and gas company that you worked at. When I got a job there, I was super excited by the possibilities, the independence, and the opportunity to travel. Within a year of being there, something didn't feel right. I didn't know what it was. I was like, "What do you mean?" I've worked so hard at school to get this degree and this job. Now that I'm here, something feels wrong. I had a lot of these unhealthy coping mechanisms that were all of a sudden popping back up. I was like, "Whoa."

At this point, I didn't have a lot of dialogue or ways to verbally identify these coping mechanisms but I knew that something was flaring up. These are physical signs that something is not right because I'm coping in these unhealthy ways. I honestly didn't know what to do. It felt like a huge identity crisis. I'm trying to put myself back in that space. It feels like eons ago. It's like, "What was I even thinking then? I don't know."

I was 23 when I started realizing this. I used to feel like this group or this company is where my people are. I belong here. All of a sudden, I started to feel like I didn't belong there. A lot of my very good friends are from there, but the people who sat next to me and my mentors, I feel like an impostor. I don't understand and I don't want to understand what's going on. I started to explore. I knew that something wasn't right. I started eating better. I went to these things that I could control. I started spending a lot of time on running and long endurance activities. Those were my respite.

It’s going back to the foundation.

The thing that made me feel better is endless running.

It wasn't only a coping mechanism but a healthier one. 

It is a huge one. It was sometimes healthier than others. At some point, when I was working at Exxon, I was running almost two times a day. I get up in the morning to run. I come home and run. I had all this energy and it wasn't being channeled into my work. I felt like when I went to work, I had stuff to do, but it wasn't using this energy. I did an online health coaching class. I was just poking around. I was like, "What can I do here?" I did yoga teacher training. It’s none of those things where I was like, "That's going to be my career,” but it's something. After doing that for a while, I had one job offer from a yoga studio. I was like, "That didn't feel right."

At some point, I was eating at Pondicheri in Houston, one of my favorite restaurants. I was going to the bathroom and they had a sign that said, "Help wanted." I was like, "Maybe I will apply. Why not?" I applied. They're looking for someone for the Bake Lab, which is their upstairs bakery and food lab. They did a lot of cool experimental stuff up there and offered me a job. I don't know why it felt right even though I got hired to make coffee and serve pastries. It was the bare minimum.

I was like, "I will do this and try to get my health coaching business off the ground. It will be more aligned." My full-time job will align more with this career that I'm trying to build. I went and did that. I was trying to get my health coaching business off the ground, but I also felt like an impostor there. I was like, "Who am I to be helping people with this?" It was very anxiety-inducing, to be honest.

I love that you mentioned impostor syndrome because I published an episode about it. The impostor syndrome gets worse when you feel you're not tapping into that inner voice and intuition. You're not aligning with what you're supposed to align. When you get there, you get more fulfilled, confident, and congruent on the path you're walking. Did that happen to you?

Yes. When you feel impostor syndrome, it's not something to necessarily grind your heels down and work through. It's like, "If I'm feeling impostor syndrome, something is not 100% right.” Is that what you found in your experience?

Yes. It's getting curious and asking questions to yourself in order to dig deeper and understand where you are not aligning. The impostor syndrome is like the self-discovery syndrome. There is something there that is not aligning. It depends on you to have the right questions to get there, which is the same thing. I love that you shared that.

Thank you. I felt like an impostor doing this coaching. I had some volunteering I was doing with this space of knowledge. I still loved food. I loved to help. I loved to assist people in feeling good in their bodies. I was doing this volunteering and that felt right. I felt weird accepting money for talking to people about their health, but I felt good about giving it away. I was like, "I'm going to keep giving it away and keep working at Pondicheri.

I was climbing because I was energetic and excited. I got to be a barista and server, then I got to help with their cooking classes. I got to expand on their cooking classes. I got to create her website and her food blog, which is India1948. I built that whole thing. I eventually got to manage the Bake Lab. That was an amazing experience because I got to be part of something I believed in. We were creating food that I truly believed was something that Houston needed.

It was unique. You ate it and you had to pause. The flavors were so interesting. I loved the new relationship I was having with food. Before, it felt like, "You got to eat healthy as you can. It's got to be good and fuel you." This felt like fueling but in a different way. Some of it was heavier. Some of it would not be considered healthy but it was nourishing.

I ate it and I felt like I'm interested, and I have to pause because it was delicious and interesting. I started to feel good about eating good food instead of being very focused on the health aspect only. That was inspiring. I love that I got to work on processes to make the place better for the workers, for the customer and overall, for the boss. I loved the puzzle of running a food establishment. It was so much fun.

A lot of people need clarity. The only way to find clarity is to define those options that you want to experiment with, go for it and take action. That is exactly what you did. You tried yoga. You worked in Pondicheri. You were keeping your full-time job. You were doing 4 or 5 things and different paths to see what you connected with and you resonate with that. How did you start getting clarity? Did you think that was the path for you?

It is trial and error. You don't know what you want until you know what you don't want. I still have to remind myself of this. Even with my own business, I experiment with things. They fail or don't feel right and I'm like, "I thought I would be better at this by now.” Just trial and no error. No, there's still that interesting process. Half the fun of doing something new is like, "Is it going to work or is it not going to work?"

That is why even in my business, we almost make a new bread every week. I don't have a consistent menu. I don't do the same exact thing every week. We change it up based on what the farmer is offering or based on what's inspiring or interesting. I still bring that into my current work because I do love the gamble, the uncertainty or the newness. That's what keeps me interested. If I was executing the same menu week after week, I would be bored with this business.

The only way to find clarity is to find those options that you want to experiment with and go for it and take action.

 

Creativity is bred in uncertainty. There is no other way. If you're certain, there is no creativity. I love that you're channeling that into your business every week. That's awesome.

It gets more challenging as the demands of the business get bigger. We have five employees. To keep that creativity, it's not just me in the kitchen whipping up all this stuff. I need to communicate what I'm doing to another individual or I need to be there with them. I'm also seeing how my communication of what I'm envisioning is telephoned to this next person and how they wind up creating it. That's another trial and error thing. We are all getting it.

You were in Pondicheri when you received that offer. Did you leave your full-time job?

When I got the job offer, I immediately was like, "I'm giving my two weeks." They were scared and I was scared. They were like, "Why is this person leaving to come here for full-time?" I don't remember exactly but I knew it felt right. I remember how I felt after that first job offer from a yoga studio. It was like, "I don't know." My inner voice was not in there with me.

I had started dating my now-husband at the time all this was going on. He was also very uncertain about the yoga thing. When I told him about Pondicheri, he's like, "That sounds about right." He could also sense my attitude towards it. He was super supportive. He got me this beautiful spice book when I left as a farewell gift or as an exciting new chapter gift.

I still cherish that memory of the support that he gave me as I was doing something that felt right. Not that my parents were not supportive, but I was perceiving the reactions of the world as, "Why would you leave this corporate high paying job to be a pastry slinger and coffee maker at a little bakery?” To have the support of the person I loved the most and wanted to be with in my life was so important and validating.

I was young at the time and I'm still young, but I felt I needed the validation and the confidence of others to execute on things. I always wonder if I didn't have him and his assuredness in me, I don't know how I would've entered this next phase. He was on my team. Even when it was hard, he can handle it when things get hard. When I'm failing, it's not like he wavers like, "You're failing. You should have done that other thing." He's like, "This is part of it. Keep going."

I love that because my case is the same. When I made the big decision to leave the corporate to have my own coaching business, I told just a few people. Those few people are my mom and my fiancé. It's the same thing as you. It was incredible. He was like, "Do what your heart tells you to do." I thought he was going to say that I was crazy or what am I thinking. It's a beautiful validation from people you trust. There are other people that you shouldn't listen to because they're not doing what you're doing. I resonated with that a lot. I'm happy that you got the same experience.

It feels good to be seen in that way. I had a lot of doubts about whether I was making the right choice or if I could do what I was thinking in my head. To be seen by your partner is like, "I see you could do that." They see you as your best self even if that's not who you are in the present. I can't describe how transformational and life-changing that is to have that. It's like, "I got lucky with this guy."

When you left your full-time corporate job and started this full-time job with Pondicheri, did you experience some identity shock? You mentioned the people's perception of the whole situation, which is normal. Did you experience yourself saying, "I was an engineer with a six-figure job and then I'm going down the ladder?" Identity shock is something that I've worked through.

There's a huge identity shock. I used to use the fact that I was an engineer to let the world know that I'm smart. That was my external sign like, "Trust me, I'm smart." Now I am behind the counter at a restaurant. There were a lot of times I was like, "These people are treating me like I'm dumb." I hated it. It drove me crazy. I also knew that they don't know me.

It also gave me a different respect for all careers in general. We have no idea half the time who we are interacting with in the service industry. There are so many smart humans who are more capable than what they are doing at this moment that we interact with every day. I never was someone who gave anyone a hard time in service because I always knew they were handling my food. This is a transaction of something that I'm going to assimilate into my body. They deserve respect because they're providing me food.

I now have a whole different perspective if I went to a restaurant. I was a little more gracious like, "I don't know who you are but you're probably much more than I can even imagine. All I'm interacting with is you serving me a meal." It gave me whole different respect for the service industry and service industry professionals. I watched things differently. Whenever I went out to eat or went to a coffee shop, my vision went from this to how they are coming in and out of the kitchen, how they are interacting with tickets, and how they are interacting with the customers. The whole thing became interesting. 

I love that because I come from an immigration background. A lot of people come to this country with Doctor and Engineering degrees. Because their education is not recognized, they end up working in the service industry. We see the space and the body there but we don't know their story, which is a lot bigger than what we see. I love that you brought that up and recognize that.

We should always give them the benefit of the doubt. Whoever we are interacting with in the service, assume that they are ten times better than you think they are because they are. You just don't know them.

You're in Pondicheri. You quit your full-time job. You are all-in because you're passionate. You have your vision. The how wasn't specific, but you knew what you were doing at the end of the day. It's like an abstract. What happened during Pondicheri? How did that help you get closer to that vision? What were your key lessons or learning?

For my key learnings, there were flavors. I got to understand and interact with a cultural genre of cooking that's all about wow flavors, the variety of spices that they incorporate, and the different types of fats. Anita, the owner and chef at Pondicheri is unbelievably inspirational. Her creativity knows no bounds. This woman is creative on every level. That was a big lesson.

I was around someone who could interact with food and flavors in a different way than I had ever done it. Also, the running of the establishment. When I got to be a manager, I was working with the baristas, cooks, chefs, pastry staff and how those things all work together, and getting to have that overarching witnessing of it instead of just being in the middle of serving a million people. It's not a lot of time to witness and observe. I got to have that.

It also gave me the confidence that I had something special because she let me have a little more breadth than I expected to have. All of a sudden, I could see that I had some skills. I can see when things need to get done, especially in food. In a kitchen or a restaurant, I see when someone leaves a table and we got to get that finished. I see when that needs to get done before this gets done.

All of a sudden, my process-oriented brain felt applauded there. It never felt good at my corporate job. It felt like you were always ten steps behind. Here, I was ten steps ahead all the time. It was a nice feeling. That was an amazing phase. My partner left Exxon also. He goes to MIT to do a dual Master's degree. We're doing long-distance for a year while I'm working at Pondicheri.

How long have you worked at Pondicheri?

I was there for two years. He's there and he has an internship, so it's like a six-month break. He gets an internship at Nike in Portland, Oregon. He wanted that, or so he says, so that I would move with him. I wasn't going to go to Boston at the time. He's like, "Maybe she will come to Portland." He gets this job. At the time, I had started baking bread at home because I was super interested in it. I watched the Chef's Table, Nancy Silverton. Have you ever seen it?

I've watched Chef's Table but I don't remember her.

The Nancy Silverton one straight-up inspired me. I wanted to bake. I had no thoughts that I wanted to do this for a living, but I watched her up. I was like, "I'm going to bake at home." I started doing this at home. When he was moving to Portland, I loved baking bread at the time. I was not very good but I was having a great time. I was like, "I want to learn how to do this."

I reached out to Samin Nosrat, who wrote Salt Fat Heat Acid. I send her an email. I'm like, "I'm thinking about being a bread baker. I'm trying to decide if I should go to school. Should I go to pastry school or should I just get jobs?" She's like, "I'm super busy but here are three different people. Let's see what they say."

Let's stop there because there is so much learning there. Some people are like, "I'm going to send an email to this person. If she never replies, I'm not going to do it." You went ahead. You are like, "I'm going to give my best, send that email and let us see what happens." What is the mindset that you have that is an enabler in order to get you over that hump of overthinking that nothing is going to happen? I see this in you over and over. You're like, "I'm going to do it." There is something that you trust and you go for it. How would you describe that in yourself? Going from corporate to entrepreneurship, that's an important thing to have in yourself. What would you say that is? Is it trust or faith?

When you’re young, you feel the need for validation and confidence from others before executing things.

 

I don't think it's either of those things. I don't have any trust. I send that email and I don't trust that someone's going to answer me. I hope. The uncertainty and the hope are what excites me. Maybe this person will tell me what's up. Maybe they won't. I value experience. After Exxon, I had this whole feeling of being betrayed by the education system. I felt I was forced and pushed into it. I was very fortunate.

At the end of the day, I have no regrets. I don't want to knock the amount of privilege I had to be able to get this degree and have the type of job that I had. I felt like the world told me, "Get this good job, get this good degree, and you will be worth something in this world and you will be happy." I felt like I'm done trusting this degree. That degree didn't make me an engineer. No offense. I was not a great engineer.

It’s the same here. I started like you. I studied Chemical Engineering. I did a little bit of engineering for six years in my first corporate job. I didn't even enjoy it. I was very young.

I didn't love that. I don't want to hear about the degree. I didn't respect the piece of paper as much as I respected the experience. I need to ask people who have experience. I don't want to ask a teacher at pastry school, "Should I get a degree or not?" It's like, "You should get a degree."

It's theory versus practice at the end of the day.

I had so much more respect for the practice. I learned so much in the two years at Pondicheri. I learned a lot at school, but it felt so applicable immediately. I hoped that things will work out. If they didn't, I also had confidence that I will figure it out somehow or some way. I'm not going to lay down in the middle of the road and be done. I'm going to keep moving. It might not be graceful. It might look weird, but I've got solid people in my corner. Anybody who doesn't see that can keep going. I have no interest in people who are only there to enjoy the ups. I'm going to have downs. I want a small intimate circle of people who can handle life, the good and the bad. They don't need just all the good.

I love it because it's important for people to listen. You follow your gut because if not, you wouldn't have gotten there to email this person out of nowhere. You're following your gut and confidence that things will work out and you will figure it out somehow. You emailed this person. She provided you with three contacts. What happened after that?

I got responses from all three. Two of them were from Tartine Bakery in San Francisco. This is the Mecca of bread, and then Josey Baker from The Mill in San Francisco. I got emails back from these three people. They were pretty much all saying, "As business owners, we value experience more than a pastry degree." I've got my answer. I was like, "Steven was moving to Portland. The West Coast is a very big bread hub. I’ve got to get some bread experience." At this moment, I only had management food experience. I didn't have a lot of kitchen experience. I asked Josey Baker. He had an apprenticeship program. I applied and got it.

It's a brief apprenticeship but I was like, "This is going to be the experience I use. I can put something on my resumé that I have some bread experience besides me baking at home." I go and do that. It was amazing. He operates with what he calls humane baking hours. He opens at 6:00 AM. That's when his workers are expected to get there. A lot of bakers do overnight shifts or 2:00 AM. He was like, "I want my bakers to have lives and be on the same schedule as the rest of the world." I was inspired by that.

He used whole grains, which I loved. They had a mill in the facility, which takes the grains that you get from a farmer and you grind it into flour. He did that onsite and I loved that. That was a very brief experience. I take that, put it on my resumé, and go to Portland with my husband. I found it in one of my cookbooks. I had a list of all the places I was going to apply to in Portland. I put next to one of them, “Tabor Bread. Dream job.” That's the one I wound up getting. I got to work at the dream in Portland in Tabor Bread.

It's so crazy but when you write it, you take the action, put the intention and look back, it gives you chills of how things happened.

I still couldn't believe I got that job. I had the option to work somewhere within walking distance from where we lived for more money. It was the bread. It would have been cool. I still would have learned a lot, but it wasn't the type of bread that excited me. I was still very into whole grains. I was super curious because the different types of grains give dough different qualities and different flavors. It's so much more than white bread and whole wheat. Those are two boring ways to eat bread. There are hundreds of types of grains. They all have these unique flavors like terroir.

I take this job at Tabor Bread. They mill their own flour. They have a wood-fired oven. They do all sorts of whole grains. Everything is naturally leavened. They have four different types of starters. Starters are the way that you leaven bread. Instead of using fast-acting or instant yeast, you use a starter. It's a culture.

I was so pumped by this job. I was the mixer's assistant, the bread assistant. I helped the mixer. That was my job. It was not like, "You're in charge of all the mixing." I didn't get any of the sexy jobs that are there at bakeries, but I was so excited because I was a sponge. I was learning so much all the time. Tabor Bread was one of my most influential jobs for Demeter's Kitchen in our product offerings. They gave me the confidence to use different whole grains and experiment. It wasn't like, "Don't mess with that ratio. This is bread. That's it." It was like, "All grains are different. You’ve got to figure it out."

Even if the mill is different, if the harvest is different, it changes the way the flour holds water. That means you’ve got to change your recipe. It got me very excited by things that are naturally leavened by whole grains, by doing things in this very long and slow way. I felt for the first time that my job was asking me to have patience. I felt very rushed a lot in other jobs. Here, there's pace. We have to keep up with the bread, but bread is such an activity. You are at the mercy of the weather, the yeast culture, humidity and water temperature. All of this contributes to the fermentation of the bread. You're not rushing it. It's going to take the time that it takes. You're on its clock.

I may need to start making bread because patience is something we all are working through. I agree with you in regards to the educational system. The educational system teaches us to get things like this. You study hard, you know the theory, and you get an A in the exam. It's very linear. It's like, “You do this and this, and you get the results.” When you get out of school, everything is taught at a different pace and in a natural order.

Patience is the enabler for so many things that we are seeking in order to get those results. Look at you. You were seeking experience, not status. You were seeking experience, not seeking to be popular. You were learning. It doesn't matter what level you were working. I love that you brought up letting go of the fear of embarrassment. A huge challenge for many people is being seen as starting small and letting go of that status that they have in order to gain much more fulfillment and to create their own thing.

Also, to be part of a team. If you come in with, "I was an engineer. I was a manager at another bakery," no one gave a flying crap. I was doing dishes, “What do you need?” I was doing whatever. I was brushing baskets or oiling bins and very boring stuff. I'm watching and eventually getting to get on the table getting to shape bread, “You seem capable. You can do the Challah bread and bake all the sandwich loaves.”

Over time, you build trust. If I ever were to not be at Demeter's Kitchen, if I ever had to go back out and get another job, start me at the bottom. That is how you build a relationship with the team. It’s like, “I'm not here to be the boss of you without knowing all that you do every day. I do dishes. I've done that boring job that you're doing. We all have to do it at some point." It's not because of hazing. It's because this is part of what makes this place run.

As smaller and boring a task is, it's truly instrumental to executing this thing that we're all trying to do. Even with the next job that I got, if there's no dishwasher, I'm one of the first people to get on the dish pit. That is one of the quickest ways to let your team know that, "I'm here for you. I'm not just about getting in, getting out, and executing on my highest ideal. I'm here to make sure that this place runs, and a part of making this run is the dishes." Cooking is cleaning.

In terms of deciding the teams that you were going to join, you were very intentional. You're like, "This is my dream place. Hopefully, I will make it." With that hope and action, you did. A lot of readers may be thinking, "What about the financial security piece if I leave my corporate and start all these part-time jobs or if I decide to be a baker or work in the food industry?" What are your thoughts on financial security? How were you able to manage that transition? A lot of people have that question.

It took me two years to figure it out. I worked at Exxon for almost three years. About a year in, I didn't know. Once I knew that I'm probably going to leave this job at some point, I started tracking my spending in an Excel spreadsheet. What am I doing every month? It wasn't like I was trying to change anything drastic at that point. I was like, "Where did my money go? What happens?"

I watched that for a long time and started to see how I spend money as an individual. I also tried to make my life as cheap as possible. I moved from the house that I was sharing with some other women to the cheapest apartment I felt safe in. I made it a goal to pay off my car because I knew that monthly expense was debilitating. I started saving as much as I could. I did sacrifice. I had a lot of friends who were still very much in the, "I'm making this amount of money. I will continue making this amount of money for a long time."

I was like, "That's not my plan." I felt very grounded and motivated by this new puzzle. It felt like a puzzle. How do I save as much money as possible? How do I change my life, so that is an ability? What are the sacrifices I'm willing to make for this ideal that one day I will feel comfortable enough to make significantly less? It's not like I was looking to go and make half. I was going in. I was going to make a third or less.

I was like, "I need to have good savings in case something happens health-wise. You never know. I need to have any monthly expenditures done." The only thing I should be worrying about month to month is my rent. Car needs to be paid off. I had a medical bill that I had been paying off. All those things need to be done first before I can do this.

That's how I got financially ready to make significantly less. I also always kept in mind there's Uber. There are all these ways. I told myself, "You will have more ability and time to do those things if you need to." I had backups. What are the ways that I could log in and log out? I could do waitressing. When I needed money, I asked to work at night at Pondicheri like, "Let me be a waitress and make more tips."

Your partners should see you as your best self, even if that's not who you are in the present.

 

You can make it work. There are options. You’ve got to let go off of the control of the how and figure it out.

I needed that data. I'm not going to act like, "Just go and do it, and you will figure it out." I saw through observing for years what I was spending. My car was the most expensive thing that was going down, my living and my rent. Those are the two things that I needed to get down on, and less going out to eat. These are all little stuff. Everyone knows that. Get coffee at home and save $20 a week, whatever it is.

It’s little things like that but they felt meaningful. I don’t mind doing that because I’m doing this to enable myself to do something I want to do, not because I’m looking to watch my account grow. I don’t want to have this nest of money for nothing. That nest means something. It means stability, safety and confidence. I’ve got to get that happening.

It’s the same here. I looked at the numbers. I had saved a reasonable amount of money, not as much as I wanted because we had purchased our house. That's a big investment. I didn't do my nails for a year and a half because that wasn't the priority. Sacrificing those minor things that when you add them up, they are a lot of money. I love that you did the same. You're in this job. You're learning everything and doing anything. What happened after that?

My then fiancé, because we had gotten engaged before that, has to go back to Boston to finish his degree. We always knew that he would probably have to go back to finish his degree. We move from Portland. I loved that job and didn't want to leave. I wanted to learn more but this was part of the plan. We go back to Boston. I am again searching for a job. I didn't have a dream job there.

I was set on not doing baker's hours. I had some of that at Tabor. It wasn't too bad. I never did overnight shifts but it was early. I prefer not to do that again because I and Steven were on two different schedules. That was tough sometimes. I was like, "I'm going to look for a job." I want it to have bread. I got to have my hands in sourdough bread. Otherwise, I'm open.

I got a job at Loyal Nine. Loyal Nine is a restaurant in Cambridge, Massachusetts. It seems crazy. I don't even know why they were like, "You're going to be our new pastry chef." I was like, "Okay." I only had bread experience. I always went in with, "I'm a quick learner. I don't know everything. I'm not formally trained, but I am eager and excited by what you guys do. I want to learn it." That's how I entered into this job. They hired me. I get trained by the pastry chef. That is the single hardest job I've ever had in my life. That was the most physically, emotionally, and mentally exhausting work I've ever had for lots of reasons.

Firstly, I was in charge of the pastry program, which meant for their nighttime are plated desserts which I'd never done. There are always components. It's got to have a lot of artistry. It's got to be easy because I'm not on the line at night, so I'm not the person plating it. You better make it both artistic and easy enough to serve that no one who's on the line that night is going to mess it up. We had a café in the morning, so there's all that to do. I did the bread program, the plated desserts, the café desserts and everything.

I liked that job because I learned tons of fundamental pastry methods and techniques. We made ice creams, sourdough bread, Easter bread, brioche, biscuits, scones, cookies, pies and cakes. Anything and everything I would have liked to have learned, we got to do. I then quickly got to be the lead. Eventually, my head pastry chef who trained me became the sous-chef. I started having people who were working for me in the pastry department.

That job was cool because I got to present new plated desserts at night. It was a slow burn. It took some time for me. I wasn't coming right out of the gate like, "New desserts." I needed to prove to myself that I could execute what they were doing presently and that I could do it consistently. That's all I focused on at the beginning. What can I do that you're already doing and do it well or better than you anticipated?

It took a while to do that. Once I got that down, I got to have a couple of folks that were working with me in pastry. I got to present new desserts for the evening menu. The reason I say that was the hardest job is because I worked 4 days a week, but it was 10 to 15 hours a day. It's a city so we worked in a basement with no windows, but all the ovens and heating sources were upstairs. If I ever had to do anything, I'm carrying it up two flights of stairs. It was tiring.

We had not enough resources as most of the stories in most restaurants. You don't have enough people and time. We needed more than we had. I gave more than I probably should have given. I tired myself out. It showed in my relationships and my partnership at home. I was using different coping mechanisms to cope with the exhaustion of that work. Even though I will say, "I never want a job like that again," it taught me what I don't want, and what I don’t ever want to provide for someone who worked for me. I don't want anyone to experience the physical, mental and emotional exhaustion that that job created.

For example, I had a bad knee issue from that job from all the stairs and the constant standing. It was something I’m still recovering from. Here at Demeter's Kitchen, we have a health program. Even though I can't provide health insurance, I don't have the number of people or the financial ability to provide my I employees' health insurance, we have a health reimbursement program. Everyone gets $100 toward their monthly health. That is massage and acupuncture. If you have to go to the doctor, bring me a receipt. We will reimburse you. I encourage people to use it for these preventative care sorts of things. I too get a massage once to twice a month.

That’s leading by example.

We have a partnership with Soma. They are a business here in Denton. They are different from most massage studios. They also believe that massage is part of a health routine. They don't do tips. They're like, "We're like a medical service. This is our charge and that's it." We have a partnership with them. Anyone of our staff can go in once a month and get a free massage. They never even have to present their credit card. You just get a massage.

When did you create Demeter's Kitchen? Tell me about that.

My now-husband, Steven, finished up his degree in Boston. He gets a job. He has a few job offers, one in Denton, Texas. When we come to Denton, I'm like, "What bakery am I going to work at?" I still felt I had a lot to learn. I also got curious about making cheese. I don't know why. It was an obsession I had. We come to Denton and there was no bakery that I was inspired or interested in. Everyone has a nice bakery. I was like, "This is a nice bakery,” but it didn't have something that I needed to learn.

Tabor Bread and Loyal Nine have something. I was like, "I need to learn what you're doing." They focused on New England fair. They took very old recipes and modernized them. I liked that they did a lot of ferments too. We had this huge section of ferments. Loyal Nine had something I had to learn. I didn't feel that when I came to Denton. Even in Dallas, it was a big drive and I wasn't down for that.

There is nowhere in Denton that has something I have to learn. I also felt that there was a place for my type of bread. I don't see anybody doing whole grain sourdough, highlighting grains, and trying to make this bread that people can feel nourished by and satiated by. I don't want to make bread that's like how people are always demonizing bread and carbs. I want to change people's minds about it.

Bread has been a source of protein when people didn't have access to meat. When you use the whole part of the grain, you have minerals, vitamins and protein. There is so much to it. We've decided to label bread a carbohydrate when that's not all that it is. We're taking a nutrient and deciding this whole item is just that nutrient. I wanted to change people's minds and their relationship with bread.

I asked my husband, "If we move to Denton, which I'm down to do, I want to start my own business and I need your support for that. We will be a single-income household for a while. I'm going to get a part-time job because I can't spend all day, every day, working on a business that's not yet happening." He was super down. We got an apartment here in Denton.

I worked at Latte Da Dairy, which was a cheese-making place in Flower Mound, and I loved that. I wanted to learn cheese. I worked at Latte Da Dairy under Anne Jones. She raised and milked goats. We made fresh goat cheese and many types of aged cheeses. I did that 2 to 3 days a week while I was trying to get this business going. Still, it felt more like Demeter's Kitchen was my full-time and dairy was my part-time, which was a new space I'd never been in before.

All of a sudden, it was not like, "I'm working on my business and a side." It's like, "This dairy isn't a side. My business is the main thing I'm working on." That amount of energy or that new split was huge. It gave me a lot more energy and need that this business has to happen because this is a very small thing I'm doing over here. It's a part-time job, part-time income. There are so many little things that occurred at Demeter's Kitchen. Do you want the brief synopsis?

Let's take the highlights. What was the most challenging thing for you to start a business?

It’s finding my market and testing the different markets. I had this idea at first that this is what it should be. I did it and it wasn't working and it was hard to get out. COVID forced me out of that and into a different way. If I go back and talked to myself before, I would've said, "You have an idea but you haven't tested these." I assumed that farmers' markets wouldn't be as good for me as having a menu at a brewery or café. I thought the menu was going to be the business maker and it wasn't. It was the farmers' markets but I was unwilling to test those at first. I was like, "This is the way. I've done these theoretical numbers. This is the one that's going to work." The farmers' markets are where it's at, 100%.

Even with the digital course I'm creating, I did validation calls to make sure they needed it. That part is super important to make sure you are providing value where the market needs that value.

You don’t want to have that nest of money for nothing. That nest has to mean something; stability, safety, confidence.

 

That's the most challenging part of a business. It's giving yourself that time. I can't expect to be making a super steady income for this amount of time because I'm testing these different markets or these different ideas. Once I've gotten some of this data, I take the most encouraging one. I moved that way and let it organically grow from there. The most challenging part was the patience and understanding that this is normal. This is part of this business. Business isn't just like, "Open your doors and you're successful with the first idea you had." It's nice to start smaller, test little nuggets, and take the feedback from those tests and move this way, push that one aside for a minute, and then divert. It was a lot of that.

Whenever you are starting a business, it’s having the vision of making it sustainable and scalable. You have experimented and you know what you want. It seems like you said, "I'm experimenting every week." It can be a challenge to make it scalable if I want to do that in the future. I love that you touched on sustainability because it is important. That's why, at least in my business, I'm building this digital course. I also realize where this world is moving towards. Not everyone has decided to have one-on-one coaching. Maybe they want something faster. Instead of six months, they can do it in a few weeks. You started these by yourself. Now you have five employees. Let's applaud that. That's amazing. How long have you been in business?

It’s been a couple of years.

What would you say was the key to your success? You were going from 1 to 5 employees and providing massages. I say the massage part because that's not core. It is core for you, but that's not the core of a business. You are still thinking that those things are important for the people. You clearly have put some thought into this business that you have created. That's amazing.

Thank you. People are the most important part of a business, and that says a lot, especially in the restaurant industry. It's a transient industry. People come in and out a lot quickly. No one goes to a restaurant and like, "I'm going to work here until I retire." That's not how it works. It's very competitive to have employees.

The best way that I know how, and sometimes I struggle with the healthiness of this relationship, but when people work here, I want them to feel seen and taken care of, not just because you produce an outcome for me. I genuinely know that when you, as an individual, are working for a place where you are excited about the product, that you feel seen and heard, where you feel taken care of mentally, physically and emotionally, you are going to be the best type of person that you can be, barring other outside circumstances.

Everyone has got their home life. Everyone has got stuff going down. This is the environment I strive to create. I hope, that sets us apart as a place of employment. We are out of a home. It's not like we have all of these insane opportunities. We don't have this huge opportunity for daily revenue. It's not like we have services where there are tips. The environment is the best thing that I can create to keep people here as long as they are willing and able. I know that they're going to move on. Nobody that works for me here is like, "I'm going to be at Demeter's forever." They are all unbelievable capable human beings.

I want to be their experience that they talk about like when I talk about Pondicheri or Tabor Bread. That was a pretty instrumental piece of what I needed to move onto this next job even if it's not in food. When people come in, we do a purposeful employment interview. I try to understand, "Who is this person? They have been working here for a couple of weeks. We have some rapport."

I want to understand, "What are the things that excite you? What are the things that you hate? What do you hope and dream of for your future? What is the need that you have with the need that we have and how can we make those things work? Another thing is I want them to know that I will do my best to provide a good resumé builder for them. I don't want this to be like, "I worked at Demeter's Kitchen,” whatever. It's like, "I gain skills here. Even if I'm going to be a professor or another business owner, I’ve got to see some stuff and learn.”

I love that because you are treating them like you treated yourself in terms of the thought process of choosing the place that you were going to work for like, "What is this place going to add in me to fulfill the vision that I have for myself?" I love that you're giving back to them with that same thought process.

On the flip side, it can be tricky because there's a co-dependency there. I sometimes struggle with feeling, "If they're not okay, then I'm not okay." People have home lives. They come to work and struggle with things outside of work that happen. We can't expect people to be dealing with stuff at home, come to work and be totally fine. We come in and out. We are who we are and things are happening. We're embodying that experience. Sometimes I struggle with letting people have their experience. Their experience might be crap and that's it. That's okay.

You're not taking things personally. Whatever they're going through, it doesn't have to do with the business.

I'm letting them like, "This is a long day." Sometimes I feel this need to help them make their day go quicker and easier, but my day is crap because I haven't worked on the things I need to work on. I'm staying up late. I'm not eating or spending time with my partner because I had all this interest in making sure that their time was easier.

Sometimes I struggle with understanding that easier isn't always better. As human beings, we like to be challenged. I sometimes try to like, "They will like working here if it's easy." It's not true. Our most fundamental and transformational experiences aren't the easiest ones. I try to remind myself that I will present them with challenges here, physically, mentally and emotionally. On the flip side, I also aim to support you physically, mentally and emotionally.

I’m not going to hold your hand but I’m around. If you have something going on personally, I want you to feel, “Today is not my day. I need you to know I’m going to be a little distracted. I’m here but I’m distracted. Thank you for communicating.” We then move on. I’m still learning these fine skills. I’ve gone through periods where I haven’t taken care of myself at all because I was so busy taking care of my employees, my partner and the business. I’m still learning that. I don’t have a good answer but I do struggle with self-care, and balancing care for employees and care of business.

I was listening to a podcast and this person was talking about us business owners being able to trust our employees or students, knowing that they're adults. They have all the resources inside them that they need to succeed and figure things out, and even communicate with us based on what they need. I relate to that. I appreciate that insight.

Maybe someone is saying, “I identify with Catie’s story. Maybe baking bread is something I'm passionate about. I want to try it out." What are the key three things you can advise this person or even a person in the entrepreneurial path? You can even make it high level if you want. What are the three things they need to further continue gaining more clarity on? Whatever comes to mind, that's perfect.

I would say giving themselves the space to test. Maybe a test means taking a weekend and flipping through a recipe book. Maybe it's asking that bakery down the road that you love like, "Do you need some help once a week? I will do whatever you need me to do," and not expecting a ton in return immediately. There's sometimes an expectation that things should move quickly or we should be trusted with more. Getting yourself out there, testing, and not expecting the world and all this information to be presented to you right away is huge. I would say testing, lowering expectations, and patience for the process.

It is tough when you're in a role that's so misaligned. You are so urgent to get out. I can relate to that anxiety and that gripping feeling of, "I need to get out of here." Also, acknowledging progress along the way. I've started a business. A few years ago, I would have said, "You've done it. It's amazing." Now I've got new things and I wish I was doing them, then I will be happier.

It's trying to untether this relationship to my perfect vision and what's happening. Getting that untethered earlier rather than later is wonderful. I don't need this to be happy. This is part of my life's work and my challenge. Why should my bakery look like the ideal? I'm so young. I've just started this business. I've got so many years ahead of me to make this ideal thing.

Giving ourselves that time, space and patience to be like, "This is our life's work. Let's invest in it. Let it have its seasons. Let it do its thing, its successes and failures." One last thing, don't let little single data points become trends. I used to think if I did well at a market, I'm like, "Everything is going to be great from here." If I do crap, it's like, "I'm going to be a crappy baker forever." One little thing that happens doesn't mean it's all going to be like that in the future. Detaching this single-day moment data point and not deciding that's the future. Take note of it.

I always tell every one of my clients to zoom out. When you're looking at a stock and it is going down, you're like, "That was a bad investment." Suddenly, you zoom out and see throughout the years how climbing of that stock had been doing. You are right. Many times when we have one data point, we are like, "This is our whole life. We have been a failure since forever." When you detach yourself from that data point and zoom out, you start seeing that the story looks so much better than what you're thinking. I love that you said that.

Get around people who are doing what you want to be doing. I started hanging out with more bakers, micro-bakery business owners, and even people when I was in the corporate job. These are all people who had higher hopes and dreams. They weren't very aware they were in a moment that's not their ideal. They slowly, steadily and intelligently make moves to find a better situation for themselves, whatever that is.

Being around that type of person instead of someone who maybe is creating sludge for themselves and everyone around them. It's being around people who are inspiring, energizing, and on their own path. They’re not rushing you. They’re not making you feel a failure for where you’re at. They’re like, “I’m on this journey and I’m making it happen the best way I know how.” That's another thing, just being around people who are doing what you want to be doing.

The people who are doing the work rarely will criticize and judge you because they know everything you have to go through to get there. They're focused on their own path and supporting you. The people that are not doing more are like, "How can you do that?" Sometimes that's what happens. One last question. What was the biggest limiting belief you had to overcome now that you have your business or maybe you are still working on overcoming? It could be related to anything.

That I could do it all by myself. I had this thought, hope and dream that I needed no one else. The first thing was relying on my husband for his income. That was so hard. I'm still on that journey but I don't harvest liquid from the business at this moment. It pays for itself and its employees, and it invests in itself. That's what this business does.

People are the most important part of the business.

 

I wouldn't have this business if it wasn't for him, his financial abilities, physical, emotional and mental support. I wouldn't have this business if it wasn't for each individual that works here. I can't do it all myself. I thought for a while, "The more independence I have, the more success I portray, the better," but it's not. If I didn't have my customers, I couldn't do it.

At the end of the day, there is nothing that occurs in this business that I can take full credit for at all. Everything is part of a puzzle. Sometimes I'm not even the original seed. Sometimes I'm just the water. Someone else was the seed and they started something. I'm encouraging it. Sometimes I had no part in that. We have a bunch of cookies. I didn't make those cookies. Someone else did it. They are the genius behind those cookies, and the vendors.

You rely on so many people. I rely on the people that grow that grain. I rely on the people that deliver it. You can't do it all by yourself. I can't do it all by myself. Nobody can. The sooner we can let respect and allow others to do their job, to be there for us, to accept help, to accept the fact that this is a transaction. I am an employer. You are an employee. I give you money for your time. You give me products. It's all part of this thing.

I am so inspired by you. I cannot believe how far you have come since you left your full-time job and started at Pondicheri. I remember that time that we were sitting and having lunch. Do you remember? I was sharing with you one of my letters for when I tried quitting but it didn't work out. It's a beautiful journey. For you to be here and share your story with many people that will be able to benefit from your mentorship, story and inspiration are so meaningful. I appreciate you being here. I appreciate your time.

Thank you for having me.

If our readers want to find you or your company, where can they find your contact info?

You can find us on Instagram at @DemetersKitchen. If you're far away and want to look at pretty pictures of bread, that's the best place to do it. If you're in the Dallas, DFW area, DemetersKitchen.com. That has our offerings every week. We're going to be doing classes soon. We're pretty much a local place. If you want to follow from afar, I appreciate it. We are here to serve our pretty much direct community. That's our Denton area first and DFW after that. That's what we do. We're pretty small and concentrated.

Thank you so much, Catie, for everything you have shared with us and for being here.

Thank you so much, Yanet. Best of luck to you. This is awesome.

Thank you, everyone, for channeling into another episode. I will see you next time.

Important Links

• Demeter's Kitchen
• India1948
• @DemetersKitchen – Instagram
• https://www.YBCoaching.com/clarity
• https://www.YBCoaching.com/wellness5minsroutine
• https://www.Facebook.com/yanetbcoaching
• https://www.Instagram.com/yanetbcoaching/
• https://www.LinkedIn.com/company/yanet-borrego-coaching/?viewAsMember=true
• https://www.YouTube.com/channel/UCqxL829o0Vk-QdY12F-GgMw

About Catie Cohen

My name is Catie Cohen. I'm a baker, reader, big fan of my large dog, Goose, and two cats, Barley and Hops, proficient ping pong player, often walker, sometimes runner.